Ephesians 1:3-4 ” praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.”

Notice, it is HIS sight, and that we are blessed in the “heavenly” realms. If this is just to be realized at the resurrection, then so be it, (it wouldn’t diminish it’s greatness one bit) however the context of Ephesians seems to be mostly aimed towards informing us about who we are in Christ, both now and eternally.

After all, are we not, “raised up with Christ and seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus” (2:6)?

is it not his intent that NOW through the church the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the heavenly realms (3:10)?

I think reading Revelation 21 and seeing it as a reality (as how God sees the Church) is only possible when God opens our eyes to it. Similar to what Paul prayed for the Ephesians 1:15-23
For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Notice 21 “not only in this present age, but also in the one to come.”

John 14:23 ” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.”

When will this happen? When will God the Father and Jesus come and make a home with me?

Is the kingdom of God really “within me”? (Luke 17:21)

This is really a conversation about how much our union with Christ effects us now. Rev 21 is a glimpse of how God views the church. How much of a difference is there? Some, but not enough to diminish the present glory of the church (Eph 3:21), nor is there enough to diminish the future glory of the church by assuming the present is “as good as it gets”. truly the second coming/final judgment/ resurrection/ glorification of our bodies will be a greater reality, I think greater then the description of Rev 21.

I think I’m going to have to change my name from Echo to Mr. Contrary, who always has something mean and negative to say.

Anyway, I don’t think I’ll be mean and contrary. I think I’ll ask some questions.

You said:
“Hence it is not inappropriate to associate the imagery of rev 21 with the current reality of the invisible church. therefore “heaven is a place on earth” could be better understood as “heaven is a people on earth”, meaning the church in it’s radiance.”

- Echo:
Now the conversation you and I had about the church that caused such consternation makes sense. This is an AHA! moment for me.

I’m thinking about how to phrase my answer in the form of a question, jeapordy style, so that I seem less contrary.

I can’t seem to do it though, so I’ll just say what I’m thinking.

Yes it is inappropriate to associate the image of the church in Rev 21 with the current reality of the invisible church.

While this does in fact picture the invisible church, it pictures the glorified invisible church. It pictures the eschatologically fulfilled invisible church made visible.

Let me explain it in terms of righteousness.

In justification, God declares us to be righteous, based on the merits of Christ, obtained by faith alone. In justification we are not made righteous at all. We are declared to be righteous based on the righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

In sanctification, Christ’s righteousness becomes infused into us. (Yes, I know the Romans use that word, talking about infused grace, but they also put this in the category of justification, that’s what makes it wrong.) The Holy Spirit in sanctification actually cleanses, sanctifies our hearts, causing us to long for the things of God, having an effect on our deeds/actions, because by this work of the Spirit we actually want to be obedient to God. This is our hearts of stone being replaced gradually with living tissue. But of course, sanctification is a process not completed in this life, no matter what John Wesley says.

In glorification, we actually become fully righteous, unable to sin, thus the term glorification, because we share in Christ’s glory, because he gives it to us. What is merely a legal status now becomes fully reality in glorification.

So to review, justification is declared righteous, sanctification is a gradual growth into righteousness, and glorification is a becoming perfectly righteous.

Associating this image in Rev 21 with the present reality in the invisible church, I think would be a mistake. What is pictured is what God has declared us to be, and what we are slowly becoming, but not yet are. What is pictured is what is to come, namely glorification.

We must be extremely careful not to claim too much for ourselves in this life I think. For example, John Wesley taught that you can become perfectly, fully sanctified in this life through a second experience similar to the Pentecostal baptism in the Holy Spirit. (Notice I said Pentecostal, which you have not claimed to be. I mean the distinct denominational Pentecostal doctrine of say the A/G.) John Wesley would say that this image in Rev 21 is a present reality in the invisible church.

But we do not actually affirm that, and I say we including you. We believe that while we are being conformed to the image of Christ – i.e., to the Rev 21 image – we do not attain that image. What we are witnessing in Rev 21 is a picture of the glory of Christ fully realized in the church.

Well, but of course, that isn’t true of us yet. While it is becoming true, and we are growing in real, actual righteousness, we remain sinners because we remain sinful. We cannot fully escape sin in this life. Sin is conquered, yes, but it’s still bleeding to death. It’s mortally wounded, but still putting up a fight.

I’ll leave it at that and await your response. I’m quite interested as to how you will respond actually. It will tell me a lot.

E

Difference between symbolic and spiritual

symbolic- the images in revelation 21 are symbolic of the the physical aspects of the eternal abode.

spiritual- the images in revelation 21 are illustrative of the beauty of the church (the elect) as God sees them. This imagery is both now and not yet. Hence it is not inappropriate to associate the imagery of rev 21 with the current reality of the invisible church. therefore “heaven is a place on earth” could be better understood as “heaven is a people on earth”, meaning the church in it’s radiance.

Consider if you can apply these words to your life NOW

“Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.”

“I am making everything new!”

Consider if these verses apply to you NOW

II Corinthians 6:16 “What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

II Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I really enjoy reading II Corinthians 4,5,6 and comparing it to Revelation 21. it puts into perspective how God views the church.

I don’t know about you, but I’ve seen gold. I wear some on my finger every day, matter of fact.

Matt seems to have a symbolic/spiritual type of view.

I am still waiting for rube’s answer to whether the streets of gold are literal/physical or symbolic

I would really like to get a literalist into the discussion that way all three views could be represented.